Tatyana Mitkova: Mr President, we would like to discuss today the latest political steps taken, as far as I understand, on your initiative. These proposals considerably change the political system in our country and it is important for us and for our viewers to understand what has caused you to take such tough measures and what consequences you think this will have for our society, for our country as a whole.
President Vladimir Putin: It is just as important for me to explain to our people what has motivated me to propose these initiatives. I would very much like for us to have a real discussion of this subject today and not just a question and answer session.
First of all, I would like to say that these proposals are not in any way about giving the head of state additional powers as far as relations with the regional authorities are concerned. In all my years of work I have never had any problems with any of the regional leaders, not with a single one of them. This is absolutely not a case of, to use the expression in fashion, “tugging the administrative blanket” my way. These proposals are guided by completely different motives and arguments that lie, above all, in the way the system that has developed over the past years functions.
Nikolai Svanidze: Vladimir Vladimirovich, in your address to the nation following the tragedy in Beslan you said that Russia had become the target of international terrorist intervention, in other words, that war had essentially been declared on our country. How does this tally with your policy statement that Russia must become a country in which it is comfortable to live? How can people feel comfortable when they are being told about war every day?
Vladimir Putin: They can’t, of course. But there is no contradiction in what I said. I said that we must make Russia a comfortable place in every respect. Of course, we have not yet attained this objective. In order to reach this goal, this objective we have set, we must first overcome a number of difficulties on the road to our development, and this includes coming out victors in this war we have declared against international terrorism.
Everyone realises, after all, that the forces of international terrorism, these criminals, do not plan to launch tank offensives against Moscow, Leningrad and Stalingrad. They have different methods of waging war against us. Their aims are just as far-reaching in scope. Just take the example of the much-cited caliphate for one. For all of us the consequences could be very tangible, negative and absolutely unacceptable . It would mean for us the loss of huge territories, primarily in the south of the country, and could disorganise the entire state. We have to be ready for this and we have to fight it and put up effective resistance. The awareness of this threat should be an incentive for us to improve the way the state is managed, make our power system more effective and work to resolve the other issues we face, economic issues and social policy issues. Resolving all these tasks together will bring us closer to achieving the objectives that I set out.
Kirill Kleimenov: Why, though, did you decide to change the way regional governors are elected? Why this decision to abandon direct elections? Do you believe the system of regional elections didn’t work?
Vladimir Putin: I already said at the beginning that for me as President, as head of state, the system that emerged over the past years was comfortable enough to work within, and to be honest it was my last desire to change it. Aside from anything else, I understand perfectly well that people were able to go to the polling stations and choose the person they wanted to head their region, and now they are being asked to abandon this system and go over to what amounts to a system based on electors with the President nominating the prospective regional governor and a vote then held in the region’s legislative assembly.
People are naturally asking themselves, can they not be trusted to elect their own regional leaders? But this is not the case, of course. The question lies in how effectively the system functions, and I must say that as soon as I entered the government when I was named Prime Minister, I saw that this system did not always work.
Everyone is talking now about the events in Karachayevo-Cherkessia. What we see taking place there is in effect a government crisis, mixed up, it is true, with criminal events. But these criminal events are to do with a carve-up of assets. I remember what happened in 1999 when I was Prime Minister. It was precisely at that time that Karachayevo-Cherkessia held its presidential election. Unfortunately, in many of our regions, especially in the ethnic minority republics, the ethnicity issue often takes the upper hand in elections with people not being elected on the basis of their personal and professional qualities. So, though we may say that the system functions, it doesn’t really, it doesn’t function effectively. This is because we don’t yet have a developed civil society, unfortunately, and we still don’t have an effectively functioning multiparty system which could mix all these ethnic, economic and religious relations into one big melting pot and stir them all together.
And when we say that elections often take place along ethnic lines I would allow myself to state that this is the case only on the surface. What we are really talking about are economic battles between local and regional clans for spheres of influence and attempts to use the levers of power to sort out particular economic issues and carve up assets. What we are seeing in Karachayevo-Cherkessia is a very good illustration of this.
Back then, in 1999, when the crisis over presidential elections there began, we spent a long time in discussions with both Karachai and Cherkess representatives. I am grateful to both groups for their understanding and their willingness to come to an agreement, and at that time we found a solution to the crisis. But there was one point during those discussions when one of the parties to the negotiations suggested it would be better for them to secede from the republic. That is, to remain within the Russian Federation, of course, but to create their own mono-ethnic republic. But to start trying to achieve ethnic purity in the regions would be going too far: we would push the country into a series of endless conflicts that anyway would not bring us positive results. But these are not the only concerns.
I have been watching with growing concern of late the increasing influence of economic groups and various economic clans, noticing their growing influence on the authorities at regional level. The regional governors and republic presidents feel this themselves and they are also concerned. I can assure you that this influence is in no way tied to the interests of voters and of the people as a whole, no matter what ethnic group they belong to.
Finally, in accordance with Article 77 of the Russian Constitution, the executive branch of power in Russia is a unified whole. Unfortunately, nothing of this type has actually been created here. The system of holding direct elections for regional governors developed gradually and in some ways was a spontaneous process, which in turn set off another process. As soon as regional governors began to be directly elected, the federal authorities began in their minds to see these governors as something separate and started thinking, we can’t influence them, they do not report to us and we cannot appoint or dismiss them. So, in response they began building up a parallel system of federal power in the regions. This began as far back as the beginning of the 1990s and is still going on today. In practice, this erodes the powers of regional governors and republic presidents and leads to the formation of a parallel system of federal power in the regions that also does not function effectively.
In all of these situations it is the people who suffer because the system does not work properly.
Now, one last point that it is no less important and is particularly topical today. Coming back to the question your colleague asked about terrorism, are these proposals connected to measures being taken to fight terrorism? Of course they are because we have to create a system of power and management in the country that would make it impossible to destabilise our society and cause our state structures to collapse. We need to build a power system that responds to regional issues and is tightly bound to our national interests.
Kirill Kleimenov: In other words, if I have understood you correctly, this reform has been considered for a long time but it is only now that the moment is really right?
Vladimir Putin: The tragic events in Beslan, of course, finally prompted for this course of action.
Nikolai Svanidze: What are you going to do about the law enforcement system?
Vladimir Putin: I must say that I am deeply convinced the law enforcement system has become a lot stronger over recent years. Not so long ago it was in a state of paralysis, something that was particularly noticeable after 1996.
The Armed Forces and the law enforcement agencies have now changed for the better, but they are still not up to the tasks they have before them. The state overall and the law enforcement agencies suffer from corruption, unfortunately, and their work is not sufficiently effective. There are many ways in which we can improve this work. One is for the law enforcement agencies not to get involved in functions that are not in keeping with the nature of their work. There should be less intervention in the economy, right from the lowest level – not doing the rounds of kiosks and filling one’s pockets with a bit of cash and something to drink – and all the way up to the top where the money that changes hands is in the tens or hundreds of thousands, and perhaps even in the millions.
The law enforcement agencies are responsible for keeping law and order, for protecting people from attacks on their lives, protecting their health and ensuring the state’s security. This is the direction in which we will move. At the same time, we will ensure that these agencies are better provided for financially and better equipped technically.
But there is no doubt that we should be thinking not just about what functions the law enforcement agencies fulfil, but also about how to make their work serve the people and not act against them, so that people will not be afraid to go out into the streets. It’s not always clear exactly who people fear more, the criminals or the police? This is a totally unacceptable situation. This work implies, of course, improving the personnel situation in the Interior Ministry and the other law enforcement agencies.
Nikolai Svanidze: Vladimir Vladimirovich, you have just implied considerable corruption within the law enforcement system. But how are you going to teach them to stop trying to fill their own pockets?
Vladimir Putin: It’s a habit you can’t break, so what is needed are systemic measures, measures to clean up the state apparatus in general, including the law enforcement agencies. They are only a part of our society, after all, but they are an integral part of it. This is a complicated and large-scale task and it won’t be accomplished overnight, but we must begin work on it nevertheless because if we don’t resolve this problem we will not be able to build a civilised society.
Tatyana Mitkova: What do you see as the biggest problem for the reforms you have proposed: corruption, lack of understanding on the part of a large part of the public or the shortage of good, strong, local leaders? Or perhaps something else again?
Vladimir Putin: I don’t think there is a problem with lack of understanding on the part of the public. I think there is a problem with insufficient explanation of what proposed reforms are really about and why they are being pursued. I hope that our discussion today will help clarify some of the questions in people’s minds. I certainly want this to be the case and this is one of the aims I set myself for this discussion today. People want the authorities to be more effective in resolving the problems they encounter in their everyday lives. That is what they want above all else. But corruption is definitely one of the biggest hurdles we face in trying to accomplish our aims.
Kirill Kleimenov: I would like to come back to the issue of changing the electoral system. Do you think the new procedures should also apply to local authorities, to mayors, and perhaps also to elected authorities further down the vertical power hierarchy? Is this possible?
Vladimir Putin: Everything is possible, but not everything is expedient because it is impossible to resolve all local problems from Moscow and even from a major regional centre. It is impossible to keep track of all the roofs and roads that need to be repaired and deal with the multitude of tasks that municipal authorities face.
The municipal authorities represent the level of power closest to people. If people see their municipal leaders only on television, playing themselves up to be major political figures of the time, nothing good can be expected. Power at any level should be responsible. Unfortunately, this is not fully the case here.
This municipal level of power still has to fully mature. I remember well the time when we had problems with heating in the Far East, for example. When one of our ministers went there, the deputy governor said, “no, let’s not go out there, or we’ll end up taking a beating.” And the municipal head just vanished. As soon as the problems began, he disappeared. That is not the only such case. And this was someone who had been elected to office, someone who was responsible to his voters. But this system of responsibility does not fully operate here yet.
I think it would be wrong and mistaken to completely deprive the municpal authorities of their powers. But the powers they have should be balanced, of course. In cases where social issues can be better resolved at regional level, the instruments must be in place for this to be possible.
Tatyana Mitkova: It seems to me that there is a potential danger in that the governors, if they are appointed, approved by the regional legislative assemblies, could just forget about the people entirely and look only to the Kremlin.
Vladimir Putin: First of all, I don’t think it is fair to say that the governors would be appointed. I know many legislative assemblies that would hardly be likely to vote for a candidate of whom they did not approve for their region. This is not an easy question.
Is there a danger that governors will end up ignoring regional interests? I don’t think so, precisely because of the proposed procedures for forming the regional power system. For a start, the governor first has to be confirmed in office or elected by the regional legislative assembly. If the executive head in the region does not pay attention to his region’s problems, then it is unlikely the deputies in the legislative assembly will vote for him.
Another thing, unfortunately, just being elected through direct secret ballot is not in itself a guarantee in this country that the regional governor will pay genuine attention to regional interests. I just gave an example before of regional authorities avoiding dealing with problems even though they were elected through direct secret ballot.
So the way the power system is formed does not guarantee that regional leaders will feel themselves bound to their regions’ interests. But as I said, we need to find a way of forming regional power that will ensure a balance between regional interests and the Russian Federation’s national interests.
I think that the proposed system we have come up with for forming regional power will ensure this balance can be achieved.
Tatyana Mitkova: Thank you. Can we now turn to the question of parliamentary elections. We had a mixed system of elections to the State Duma, woth some deputies elected on party lists and some from single-seat electoral districts. Now it is proposed to change this system, or to be more precise, to abandon the mixed system of party lists and single-seat electoral districts in favour of party lists only. But would you not agree that the majority of Russians do not belong to any party, or at least do not consider themselves as having any party allegiance?
Vladimir Putin: Elections to the country’s highest repsentative bodies based on a party list system is not in any way connected to voters’ party allegiances, and in no country is this the case. Even in the Soviet Union, we had some 20 million or so Communist Party members, while the country had a total population of more than 300 million people, and not all of them were members of the Communist Party. I was, but you were probably not.
Tatyana Mitkova: I was.
Vladimir Putin: You were too? Wonderful, then we were members of the same party. But the great majority of our fellow citizens were not party members. In all countries, people vote for the representatives of this or that party not because they themselves also belong to the party in question, but because they share the views espoused by this or that party and its leaders. Voters decide that the policies proposed to develop the country and resolve its problems are the most effective. That is why they vote, not because they belong to the same party. So I think there is no contradiction here.
Why are we proposing this move to elections based on party lists? For several reasons. I already mentioned at the beginning of our discussion that one of the problems we face is that we don’t have a developed civil society and multiparty system. So long as this remains the case elections will always be about choosing between people who are nice, nicer or less nice, rather than about choosing between ideas and political views.
Everyone who wants to be involved in political activity here should be doing it not behind the scenes, not under the cover of religious or ethnic motives, but through legal political organisations, political parties. These parties should be strong, meaningful and influential both at regional and national level. That is why we are proposing that everyone who wants to get involved in politics should get elected through party lists and state that they support and share this or that idea or policy.
Also, the people who are elected from single-seat districts are obviously decent people since the voters vote for them. They are very decent in every way, but they cannot resolve anything on their own. Someone who has been elected to parliament from a single-seat district in order to promote this or that idea has to ally himself with one or other of the political or party groups in parliament because no matter what he promised the voters back home, he cannot accomplish anything on his own. If this is the case, then let him state which group or party he would ally himself with before being elected. This is also one of the motives for taking this decision.
Kirill Kleimenov: As part of all the changes that you have just spoken about in such detail, will there be any changes to the way the upper house of parliament, the Federation Council, is formed? For example, will governors and the heads of regional legislative assemblies be able to return to their seats there?
Vladimir Putin: The parliament should work on a professional basis, both the lower house, the State Duma, and the upper house, the Federation Council. Of course, the Federation Council is above all the chamber representing the regions. I already spoke about how the federal authorities began eroding the powers of the regional leaders after the system of direct elections in the regions developed, first spontaneously, and then as something fixed in federal law. I must say that this is not effective as a system because regional heads should be fully fledged leaders and have sufficient powers to function effectively, deal with the problems the regions face and take the decisions people expect of them.
In this respect, I think that if we implement Article 77 of the Russian Constitution and create genuine unity within the executive branch of power, then I think that it would be justified to bring the regional heads and the heads of the regional legislative assemblies back into the upper house of parliament in order to resolve national tasks, issues such as war and peace, the borders between the regions, the use of Russian troops abroad, the participation of our Armed Forces in peacekeeping operations abroad, budget issues, approving the budget. But the day-to-day work should be done on an ongoing and professional basis.
Nikolai Svanidze: Vladimir Vladimirovich, do you not see a threat that the decisions you have taken could have a negative impact on establishing democracy in our country?
Vladimir Putin: No, I do not think this is the case. Democracy, as we know, means power of the people. Each country looks for the most effective way to organise state power, not for the sake of this power itself, but in order to be most effective at resolving the problems the country and its people face.
I think that in light of everything I said before, we are perfectly able to create a balanced system of power that will not go against the principles of a democratic society. Citizens will continue to be able to influence power at regional level, but the regional authorities will also feel their responsibility for resolving not only regional but also national issues. We should all benefit from this because, as I see it, this system of organising power will make us better able to solve the problems the country faces.
Nikolai Svanidze: If you will allow, continuing on this subject, the decisions and measures you propose are very serious. Will they not lead to having to amend the Constitution, and what are your views in general on amending the Constitution at any time in the near future?
Vladimir Putin: I am against amending the Constitution any time in the near or medium term because the Constitution is the foundation of our statehood and enables us to form our power system in the way we consider best, but at the same time, it sets certain limits and restrictions linked above all to abiding by the principles of democracy, which I think this is very important. The Constitution sets out the basic principles for the modern Russian state’s existence and I think we should value these principles and treat them with care.
Tatyana Mitkova: Overall, Vladimir Vladimirovich, how do you expect the state to look as a result of the measures we have discussed today?
Vladimir Putin: I would like our country to have a more balanced power system, a system that functions effectively and deals effectively with the problems brought up by our citizens, a system that is more sensitive to people’s needs. I hope that we can take a significant step in this direction.
Kirill Kleimenov: I would like to ask you, what do you personally see as being Russian society’s main interest today?
Vladimir Putin: We are used to thinking in global categories, talking about society as a whole. Let’s talk about the interests of the individuals who make up this society. Our citizens want a decent life today and they want to be confident that their children will have a future. I hope that this is above all what society as a whole considers its main interest.
Tatyana Mitkova: Thank you very much for finding the time to answer our questions.
Vladimir Putin: Thank you.